tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1088582322493326269.post8647782433577927596..comments2022-11-17T07:02:39.978-05:00Comments on Jews, Muslims & Dialogue: Dershowitz: Diatribe vs. DialogueAltafhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14916982369537968010noreply@blogger.comBlogger3125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1088582322493326269.post-57928584801651703742007-12-11T22:38:00.000-05:002007-12-11T22:38:00.000-05:00Ah, the blogosphere, where anyone with an opinion ...Ah, the blogosphere, where anyone with an opinion can toss it up as "anonymous" so that they don't actually have to substantiate any of their claims.<BR/><BR/>The author of the above comment claims that criticizing Israel is not anti-semitic (I agree). The author then says that singling Israel out is not anti-semitic because Israel is singled out not because it is the world's only Jewish state but rather because "Israel is an industrialized nation and moreover it is a democracy" with "prosperity and [an] enlightened form of government."<BR/>This claim is simply preposterous. <BR/><BR/>Let's start with the least favorable case for Israel and say that its security situation in no way justifies it doing anything out of the ordinary and should be held to the same standards as other nations. Very well. The most prosperous nation in the world, the US, tortures. The "enlightened" nations of Europe torture. The democratic nation of Turkey works hard to ensure that Kurds will never achieve a homeland of their own and remain second class citizens. Israel is the only wealthy nation with a less than ideal human rights record? Please. Spare me the excuses.<BR/><BR/>But then let's really turn it up a notch. What other country on this earth faces the kinds of existential security threats that Israel does? None. Period. So, I reiterate from my first comment: name a country with similar internal security threats as Israel that has protected liberty as well as Israel has. Is terrorism a blank check for human rights violations? Absolutely not. But Israel has done a damn good job of doing a very delicate balancing act, something the US has repeatedly failed to do. Until anonymous can answer that question, all of these gestures towards Israel being a democratic nation are just feel-good excuses for anti-semitism.Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16664783292663846800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1088582322493326269.post-14563815373001623822007-11-07T22:50:00.000-05:002007-11-07T22:50:00.000-05:00I don't see how it is "anti-Semitic" to criticize ...I don't see how it is "anti-Semitic" to criticize Israel for its policy. Nor is it "singling-out Israel". The fact is Israel is very different from other countries that violate human rights. Unlike most other countries that violate human rights, Israel is an industrialized nation and moreover it is a democracy. Surely, Israel, with its prosperity and enlightened form of government should be held to a higher standard than industrializing countries who are run by petty dictators.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1088582322493326269.post-43941115907313592582007-11-01T11:25:00.000-04:002007-11-01T11:25:00.000-04:00Today's YDN contained a three weeks delayed respon...Today's YDN contained a three weeks delayed response to Professor Dershowitz's speech by the Public Committee Against Torture in Israel through spokesman Louis Frankenthaler, available <A HREF="http://www.yaledailynews.com/articles/view/22164" REL="nofollow"> here</A>. Dershowitz shredded the Committee Against Torture pretty thoroughly in response to a questioner who cited them. Mr. Frankenthaler is right to take Dershowitz to task for bein too squeemish to use the term "torture" but the rest of the letter falls squarely into the kind of unproductive name calling I referred to in my post.<BR/><BR/>Professor Dershowitz tried to distinguish between the "torture" employed by the NAZIs and the Stalinists and the "extreme interrogation" used by Israel. I have to say, I think getting hot pokers driven underneath your fingernails would hurt the same whether the interrogator is wearing the uniform of the SS or the IDF. Perhaps there is a distinction insofar as "torture" can be defined to be gratuitous, whereas "extreme interrogation" has an end. However, I don't think that that matches most peoples intuitions on the meaning of the word, nor does it seem to draw a bright line. To this extent, Mr. Frankenthaler is correct: Israel tortures.<BR/><BR/>But so what? The United States tortures right and left. When we don't want to torture we send people to the arab states that will do it for us (Syria, Egypt, ...). It isn't just Iran that has the monopoly on torture. Europeans historically tortured. If you think they are more enlightened now I would issue the same challenge that Professor Dershowitz did: name a country with similar internal security threats as Israel that has protected liberty as well as Israel has.<BR/><BR/>What's worse, Mr. Frankenthaler even grants this point in his letter. He claims that Dershowitz continues to "misunderstand the 1999 Israeli Supreme Court Decision in Public Committee Against Torture v. Israel as having 'abolished' torture in Israel. Although the judgment resulted in a significant reduction of violence against the interrogated individuals it did not categorically abolish torture." Okay! So Israel has gotten rid of the vast majority of times it tortured!<BR/><BR/>The rest of the letter continues the analogy between Israel and the Gestapo. Look, this isn't getting us anywhere. While I am willing to buy the argument that there is no significant difference in <I> method </I> between extreme interrogation and torture, there are a plethora of differences in the <I> circumstances </I> under which such torture arises and how it is overseen by the state. To ignore these as Mr. Frankenthaler does is to needlessly cloud the situation by slinging mud instead of actually trying to reduce torture through greater oversight and accountability. If we suppose a world in which Mr. Frankenthaler gets everything he wants and Israel (and the US, and Syria, and the UK, and France...) actually ban torture, the result would be even more torture, and even worse torture in a completely unaccountable system whenever the threat of terrorism arises. So, if Mr. Frankenthaler wants to stop torture, he should give up the fact twisting, name calling, and scare tactics and start trying to appreciate the complexities of the issue.Jasonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16664783292663846800noreply@blogger.com